For history buffs looking for a pattern in Pluto Returns, which is what the USA is facing in the early 2020s. Not actual events on the exact aspects but the broad shifts which separate before from after. They only occur every 250 years approximately so few countries have old enough dates to test out. But the England 11 May 973 JC AD chart does work well.
The Pluto Returns were 1956; 1709/10; 1463/64; and 1217/18.
The Suez Crisis in 1956 was the consummate humiliation for Great Britain, signalling its fall from world super-power with the empire crumbling fast in the years before and after.
Thanks to historian Hugh for the below:
The 1217-18 Pluto conjunction is interesting. In the previous century the Angevin Kings of England ruled more of France than the Capetian French kings. King John (died 1216) managed to lose nearly all of it (Normandy, Britany, Maine, Anjou) apart from Aquitaine which became Edward III base over a century later when the English crown again revived its claims to its French lands. It is the holding of continental land that tied England to France for over 400 years since it was not just the Crown that possessed overseas domains it but also much of the English ruling class. It also shaped English commerce through cities like Bordeaux. When the land and trade ties were slowly cut England and ultimately the rest of Britain drifted into new political, religious, trade and cultural patterns. The final link Calais was lost under Mary I in 1558. The future British Empire had its origins under her successor Elizabeth I, the term ironically being first used by the astrologer John Dee.
The early 1460s would have been the middle years of the Wars of the Roses. The battle of Towton which was the bloodiest in English history was fought in 1461. It was a period in which much of England’s ancient Norman aristocracy wiped itself out in the civil war, eventually leaving the way open for the upstart Tudors. However, the really significant change in the latter half of the 15th Century was the fact that as a result of the One Hundred Yeas War the English crown had lost nearly all of its European continental possessions by 1453 apart from the Pas De Calais. This brought to an end a relationship that has started in the 11th Century with the Norman Conquest and had been developed by the Angevin dynasty in the central Middle Ages. Much is made of the English Reformation under Henry VIII as marking a shift of England’s focus away from Europe towards the Atlantic and eventually a world-wide Empire but the reality is that this development was in some way forced on the country by its physical expulsion of the English crown and aristocracy from its continental lands over 80 years before.
The period 1709-10 falls slap bang in the middle of the Wars of the Spanish Succession. It was preceded by the 1707 Union of England and Scotland and the beginning of the Hanoverian dynasty. The wars against Louis XIV were the time when Britain first became a major world power, linked to the development of its navy and the financial system that helped to pay for it.
Thanks also to UNMYSTIC MUM for further thoughts:
There is a pattern to the Pluto Returns, at least as regards England.
1217: a) Parliament (and its predecessor the Magnum Concilium/Great Council, now the House of Lords) rises in prominence & plays a role in the selection of the monarch.
- b) There is a physical change in the membership of the Establishment.
- c) The French played a direct role in English politics.
1217-18 – Just before, the barons (whose statues still adorn the House of Lords, looking down on their successors) had forced King John to concede the Magna Carta. Henry III comes to the Throne and swears to abide by the Great Charter (Magna Carta) issued by his father three years ago. The barons are prominent and some of them are in rebellion against the new king. Their leader is the later Louis VIII of France.
1460s:– The War of the Roses led to a physical destruction of the nobility in the battles. Almost the entire ancient nobility that traced its ancestry to the Normans was wiped out, with the later kings creating newer nobility that was more loyal to them. The principle that it is Parliament that decides who the monarch is dates from this period. Henry VI is the only King of England to also have been crowned King of France at Reims and he was deposed in England in 1461. Edward IV of York claimed the throne (was also the last King of England to have married a commoner before Prince Charles). His daughter married Henry VII of Lancaster and was mother to Henry VIII (he of the six wives).
1710s – Parliament again in the foreground, passing the Act of Settlement in 1701, which defined the current succession to the English throne, followed by the Act of Union with Scotland 1707. The arrival of William III (of Orange) from the Netherlands brought many Dutch followers, some of whom were raised to the nobility. George I’s accession to the throne led to the first Prime Minister (initially a term of abuse, as all ministers were supposed to equal) because the new King couldn’t speak English. The King and his Prime Minister Sir Robert Walpole communicated in broken Latin apparently.
There has been a long-term change in power at each Pluto Return (1217-18, from the king to the barons; 1460s, broadly towards Parliament as we know it now, with a Commons; 1709-10, the executive power starts moving towards the Prime Minister).
Other examples: Spain – 19 January 1479 JC. The most recent Pluto Return around 1972 saw the dictator Franco gradually relinquishing power, nominating a monarch as successor to his regency in 1969; and handing over the Prime Ministership by 1973. He died in 1975.
Russia 28 March 1462 JC – the most recent Pluto Return was exact when Stalin died in early 1953. Previous Pluto Return was 1706.
France 19 August 843 JC – most recent Pluto Return in 1821 saw the death of Napoleon on the exact aspect. Previous Pluto Returns: 1577, 1332, 1088
Switzerland 26 May 1231 JC – most recent Pluto Return joined the Council of Europe. Before that 1726.
Austria 18 October 1221 JC – was angling to join the EEC on the most recent Pluto Return, managed it 6 years later. Before that 1714, 1468.
Scotland March 25 1005 JC – the second Pluto Return in 1745 saw the Jacobite Rebellion crushed by the English with savage repercussions. The next Pluto Return in 1991/2 saw Alex Salmond take over leadership of the Scottish National Party which led later to its rise to power. The Pluto Return first was 1252.
Fascinating.
Marjorie, you do need to take up Mundane Astrology forecasting. You got the debacle in Nov-20 right, as well as Jan 6th -21.
Andy, I too have a weary eye pointed at the Uranus return in Gemini. Also July -26, w/Mars conjunct Uranus in Gemini. Caught my eye along with other alignments when I noticed in my ephemeris they mirrored WWII, starting the summer of -25.
Looks like we’ll have a ramp-up of events to when the energy of the Uranus return releases w/the first pass its exact conjunction on July 27, -27.
If using the widest orbs Tarnas advises for the outer planets —up to 15 degrees; this conjunction is then first felt early fall of -23.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting read everyone, as we now sit here two weeks from the US Sibley Pluto Return.
Wow, this is really, really interesting! Thank you 🙂
In portugal pluto in aries coincided with beginning and end of each dinasty too
The other old chart which seems to work is Spain – 19 January 1479 JC.
The most recent Pluto Return around 1972 saw the dictator Franco gradually relinquishing power, nominating a monarch as successor to his regency in 1969; and handing over the Prime Ministership by 1973. He died in 1975.
The previous one was circa 1726 which I’ll leave Hugh to detail what was significant (if he will.)
A few more maybes since I don’t know where I got the original chart dates from.
Russia 28 March 1462 JC – the most recent Pluto Return was exact when Stalin died in early 1953. Previous Pluto Return was 1706.
France 19 August 843 JC – most recent Pluto Return in 1821 saw the death of Napoleon on the exact aspect.
Previous Pluto Returns: 1577, 1332, 1088
Switzerland 26 May 1231 JC – most recent Pluto Return joined the Council of Europe. Before that 1726.
Austria 18 October 1221 JC – was angling to join the EEC on the most recent Pluto Return, managed it 6 years later. Before that 1714, 1468.
If this holds good it means that strong leaders die – Napoleon, Franco, Stalin – around a Pluto Return. Which makes sense of Pluto = power, so a shift in the balance of power. Though that won’t hold good for western democracies. More to do with how a country is ruled, changes in the ethos of government. Can also in the early stages be when a country finishes a golden age to become weakened for a while.
Russia 1706 works the other way. Russia was at war with Poland, among other countries during Great Northern War. Augustus II Strong of Poland had to abdict due to losses. Ultimately, he returned to Polish Throne, though.
Marjorie, I apologise for seemingly having taken over this post. I seems to be in “The Zone” on this topic, seeing patterns in the history. This post should be my last (for today at least).
Having seen the patterns of history, I am going to make a prediction for the US. It is based purely on known historic facts and the pattern outlined above, but Marjorie, it would be much appreciated if you can look at the underlying astrology, to see if my prediction could actually happen.
Prediction
Trump will lose the 2020 election, but will refuse to concede or stand aside. There will be a lot of confusion about the status of the elections (possibly Neptune or Mercury retrograde??), but he will eventually be found to have lost. He will effuse to stand aside. There will be such public revulsion at his conduct that Congress may actually impeach him and vote him out of office (which will also be in doubt, as his election was in doubt. Only Presidents wo are in office can be impeached). Because it will be the Senate that votes him out of office, there may be physical violence against Senators (possibly even Representatives).
Basis of the prediction
a) In 2016, when it appeared that Trump would lose, he started throwing about allegations of electoral fraud. Even after winning the Electoral College, he blamed electoral fraud for denying him the public vote. It is possible that he will repeat the same in the 2020 elections.
b) The Electoral College is based on candidates winning states. The past midterms have shown that at least four states (AZ, FL, GA and TX) were close, with the two parties within two percentage points of each other. The first three of them went into recounts.
The same scenario could repeat in 2020. Those with memory of 2000 (Bush v Gore) can imagine how chaotic it would be with *four* states, not just one. TX (34) and FL (27) are rich in Electoral College votes and will be viciously fought over.
The recounts could again head to the Supreme Court. Now you will see the impact that Trump’s appointments there will have in all its glory. Also, by that time, Ruth Bader Ginsberg will be 88. If anything were to happen to her, a third of the SCOTUS will have been appointed by Trump.
The ensuing post-election chaos will lead to either a US Constitutional Convention (with a new Constitution in time for the Pluto Return of the first) or at least reform of the electoral systems for the presidency and Senate.
This is a prediction based purely on known historical events and astrological patterns. I have not looked at any charts. But Marjorie, can I request you to look at the chart for this eventuality (the 2020 elections) in more detail and can you also look at the charts for Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Stephen Breyer, two Democratic judges on the SCOTUS, both of whom are past 80.
Thoughts and feedback welcome. And apologies again for the number of posts on this article.
This is very dramatic prediction, but so is The 2021 Inauguration Chart. I hate looking at Election Day one, because setting a proper timing is an issue.
There’s something very telling on November 3rd 2020 chart, which has a Libra Mercury Retrograde as a part of a T-Square including Capricorn Jupiter/Pluto/Saturn (Apex) and Aries Mars also Retrograde. Also, Moon is going to be hitting North Node around the time first results begin to arrive. I think it’s safe to say nobody is going to be celebrating November 4th.
That said, my view is that *DJT might not run in 2020, or if he runs, he’ll have to withdraw from the campaign at some point due to health (more likely) or legal (unlikely since Republicans hold the Senate) issues*. My argument for this:
– 2020 Jupiter/Saturn/Pluto will hit his 5th house and oppose his Mercury first and Saturn/Venus exactly by the time of late campaign/election.
– His Solar Return for 2020 set to Washington DC has a seriously disturbed 12th house Sun (and given the longitude, this doesn’t change for his own East Coast residences). It squares *an almost exact* Mars/Neptune conjunction joined by Moon in Pisces and is inconjuct Pluto/Jupiter on Washington Chart Descendant. I know many people do not use Solar Returns. But when we’re dealing with a completely ego driven individual such as DJT, they are very illustrative.
His current SR, btw, is what I’d call interesting, and completely illustrative of the “bad mood” he has been on lately. But still with a 7th house Sun, Moon and Mercury telling one is capable of influencing ones surroundings. 12th house Sun, with ongoing Sun square Neptune issue (this will carry to 2021/22 SR) has a very different feeling – he won’t be understood, and may feel isolated.
And, the bottom line: Electoral Collage will, eventually, be abolished for Presidential Elections, but I doubt it will change before the late 2020’s. This ever to happen needs to be preceded by a deeper democraphic change in The US. “Sunbelt States” will have minorities become majority in the 2030’s, and no amount of gerrymandeling will be effective in National Elections when Republican Candidate won’t be able to carry Florida and Texas again catering only for “wealthy old white men”.
However, there’s one influential possible outcomes of Democrats taking WH, House and Senate (this is, by far, the most unlikely, I’m only counting on Susan Collins being out): extension of Supreme Court to 11 judges, which would better reflect US current demographics. On the other hand, if they won’t take Senate, Republicans can continue blocking all the Supreme Court nominations even with a Democratic House and President.
“The ensuing post-election chaos will lead to either a US Constitutional Convention (with a new Constitution in time for the Pluto Return of the first) or at least reform of the electoral systems for the presidency and Senate.”
As I said earlier, there will be reform of the electoral system for the presidency. Although the Electoral College does serve a purpose, it is becoming increasingly intenable. A tweet today pointed out that in the past thirty years, a Democrat candidate has lost the popular vote just once (Kerry in 2004). Yet we had two Republican presidents in that timeframe (W & Trump).
My gut feeling is that if the presidency starts getting elected by popular votes, the smaller states will demand more powers for the Senate. Remember that the Senate was designed with equal votes for all states specifically so that small states do not get outvoted by large populations. Search on Wikipedia for the Connecticut Compromise.
Small States are actually very powerful as they are. A Senator from Wyoming or Vermont represents around 300 000 people. A Senator from California represents 20 million. This probably wasn’t exactly what they had in mind 1787, when population of 13 States was 4 million. But, I feel, from what I’ve read, extending Senate isn’t Democrats’ first priority. They want fairer Electoral Districts – this matters for the House and Presidential Elections. One also has to remember they did really well on State level, snatching Governorships in places such as Wisconsin.
Could an Amendment that abolishes the Electoral College, be such an event for the US?
Very interesting post and comments. I think the broader takeaway is that a Pluto return might not mean the end of a nation, but it does signal a shift in the composition of its governing elites and overall objectives. In many respects, we are already seeing that disruption in motion here in the US, especially with the rise of Trump. Pluto works by transforming and then evolving.
It is also interesting to note that the US’s Pluto return is followed almost immediately thereafter in the late 2020’s by its Uranus return in Gemini, which happens every 84 or so years. In the US, that event coincided with the Civil War in its first pass and WW2 in its second one. I am not necessarily forecasting another major war during that period (generally the outer planets are in favorable alignment in this pass), but I do think that it will be a period of intense technological change, as the last two passes of Uranus in Gemini were. With technological change comes disruption of old economic models, political systems, and elites. I think that the 2020’s and early 2030’s will be a period of rapid change, so much so that it might create a bit of reactionary backlash later in the 2030’s and into the 2040’s, particularly when Saturn and Uranus moves in Cancer together and squares Neptune in Aries and Saturn in Leo opposes Pluto in Aquarius. History moves in broad cycles of reform and reaction. That is the story of humanity.
Very interesting and pleasant reading; a nice change of topics. Some years back I found a book titled “Europie in the 9th 10th and 11th Centuries”. The inner binder mentioned that his period was hardly ever considered as historical (the period was considered by historians as boring) yet so much shifting did occur. How will ages ahead look back onto the 20th & 21st centuries?
Thank you for consolidating my comments into a post, Marjorie. I am very flattered.
I forgot to add comments for the Pluto Return in 1956.
The “physical change in the Establishment” seems to have been true of this Return as well, with the creation of the first life peerages (with practically no hereditary peerages being created after this date, therefore new nobility) and women in the House of Lords for the first time in history.
The French Connection was most likely Suez, though there were also proposals for a united British-French Commonwealth around this time that were rejected in both countries. The UK (not just England, so not sure if this is relevant) had applied to join the EEC in 1961, but De Gaulle vetoed it (twice, the second time in 1967).
I decided to test this pattern of occurrences on other countries that have been around for a while. It seems that Denmark (formed as a unified country in 965AD, according to Wikipedia) has the same Pluto return years as England. But I do not know enough of Danish history to comment if the connections hold in Danish history.
Sweden is an interesting case. In 1520, the Stockholm Bloodbath took place, where the nobility were gathered in a hall for a feast and then massacred on the orders of the King (sounds like Game of Thrones, doesn’t it). That was followed by the election of Gustav Vasa as the new King in 1523. Both these events are suggestive of a Pluto Return of some other event signifying the formation of Sweden. Perhaps Soloia can help here?
The Pluto Return of the election of Gustav Vasa would have occurred in 1771, when Gustav III came to the throne and stripped the nobility of their power and imprisoned many of them. So the pattern holds. If that is correct, the Pluto Return for Sweden is due in 2019. In which case, Soloia, are there any political developments in Sweden that we are not hearing of outside Sweden?
The other European event that is highly reminiscent of a Pluto Return is the St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre in Paris in 1572, which was a part of the Wars of Religion in France, which led, just like in England, to the extinction of many noble families and their replacement by new nobles.
As an aside, the Pluto returns also seem to signify new dynasties (the St Bart’s Massacre in France preceded the House of Bourbon’s accession to the throne. Sweden’s Vasa dynasty came to the throne in 1523, England’s (the UK’s) Queen Elizabeth II declared that her family’s name would be Mountbatten-Windsor in 1960, etc). Thus, new nobles/noble families and new royal families replacing the old.
If the pattern that I have observed (and I do not have the expertise of many here, I am only observing patterns) above holds, the US will likely see major electoral change, with changes to the election of the President (the king/change of dynasties) – or perhaps even something entirely different, perhaps a parliamentary democracy or even a constitutional monarchy (a new dynasty) – and possibly also the Senate (the upper House/the nobility). There may also be changes to the old aristocracy of the WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant)/Boston Brahmin families (which can trace their lineage to the Revolution and even further back to England) and perhaps even the old rich families.
Thoughts and feedback welcomed.
One further pattern that everybody would notice above is the *physical* destruction/attacks/massacres on the Establishment. I would urge senior government officials, especially Congressmen of both Houses and Cabinet members in the US, to take great care of their physical security. Those intercepted letter bombs may have been a sign of things to come.
I am being a complete numpty today. I mentioned the St Bart’s Massacre in France, not realising which major event that destroyed the nobility look place close to the next Pluto Return; the French Revolution!!! It would have to be a wide arc if they are indeed related to the Pluto Returns; a Pluto Return taking 248 years, while the French Revolution occurred 220 years after the St Barts’ Massacre.
But guess what, we did have a new dynasty in France in this period. The Bonapartes came to the (now Imperial) throne in 1804, with a new nobility.
Quick flick through Polish history shows that the Jagiellonian dynasty came to an end in 1572 (same year as St Barts Massacre above) and was followed by an elective monarchy that considerably strengthened the hands of the nobility. Poland came to an end in 1795. Again, the alignment of Polish and French dates are startling, not to mention that Napoleon created the short-lived client state of the Duchy of Warsaw.
This pattern is looking eerily and scarily accurate.
If the pattern holds, Sweden is due its Pluto Return in 2019, the US in 2024 (assuming 1776 birth) or 2036 (assuming 1788, US Constitution as birth) and France around 2040s.
So the pattern holds. If that is correct, the Pluto Return for Sweden is due in 2019. In which case, Soloia, are there any political developments in Sweden that we are not hearing of outside Sweden?
Thanks for asking! Political development right now in Sweden is that there’s still no Government, more than two months from The Elections. This is unpresedented.They are on their 3rd negociator, Center Party leader Annie Lööf. Interestingly for such a gender equal party, she would be the first female PM. I think new Parliamentary Elections in Spring, possibly concurring with European Elections (Swedes tend to “bundle” their Elections), are more likely.
What’s more interesting and Plutonian, though, is that “Bloc Politics”, with smaller parties gathering around Social Democrats and Moderates that have been been the base of Swedish Politics for 100 years is going to end. Since this is Sweden, I doubt it will be very dramatic. The politics just “morph” more to the direction of Denmark and Finland, were parties determine their affiliation after each election.
And it would play into 1771 theme: Gustav III’s reign was preceded by 30 years of Caps and Hats factions competing at Riksdag. They were not completely abolished by Gustav limiting priviledges of nobility, but it all lead to large parts of Military stepping against Gustav III later on, and eventually to realignment in Nordic countries (Sweden losing Finland but gaining Norway) during Napoleonic Wars.
I pulled this together for ease of finding at a later date. Thanks for contributions.